Interessant interview met Israëlische vredesactivist Uri Avnery, hier vaak geciteerd. Hamas zijn geen monsters, zegt hij. Vooral zijn antwoord op de vraag of Hamas ´het geweld af moet zweren en de staat Israel erkennen´ zijn ook voor ons van belang.
In het engels. Interview door Tom Segev.

‘I don’t consider them monsters’

By Tom Segev Last Update: 23/02/2006

Uri Avnery returned this week from a demonstration in Bil’in, and immediately sat down to write his weekly article, as he has been doing for the past 50 years, as opinionated and energetic as a colt. The former editor of Haolam Hazeh (a now-defunct weekly newspaper) is 83 years old, writes on the Internet now, and says he has never had as many readers.

Former MK Avnery was surrounded by admirers beginning in the 1950s, but most of the time he was condemned and cursed, and even harmed physically, because he was considered a dangerous traitor. He was one of the first Israelis who understood that an Arab state should be established on the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip, and initiated talks with Palestinian leaders, including Yasser Arafat. During that period, the PLO refused to recognize Israel, and Israel refused to recognize the PLO. As the years passed, there was an increase in the number of Palestinians and Israelis who understood that the path represented by Avnery was the correct one. What was once considered in Israel to be lunatic extremism, and was even outlawed, became the country’s official policy. That is why there is reason to ask Avnery about Hamas.

“We have returned to exactly the point where we were when the PLO refused to recognize Israel and Israel refused to recognize the PLO,” said Avnery this week. “Total deja vu.”
In that case, do you suggest talking to them, as you did in the past?

“Absolutely. I suggest that the Israeli government declare its willingness to conduct negotiations with the recognized representative of the Palestinian people, on the basis of existing agreements. If they want to come – fine. If they don’t – we haven’t lost anything.”

But they are religious; doesn’t that make negotiations with them more difficult?

“More difficult and better: It’s like the saying that only the Likud can make peace. The advantage of Hamas is that it doesn’t have Hamas as an opposition. Whatever you conclude with Hamas will be acceptable to everyone. They will bring Islamic Jihad under control, just as [the Jews] did in the case of Lehi [a pre-State right-wing extremist group].

“Religious belief does not have to prevent them from adopting a flexible policy, if they so desire. Islam forbids them to give up the Land of Israel, but it allows for a hudna – i.e. a cease-fire, even for 100 years. I have always been opposed to temporary agreements, but from a religious point of view there is no reason not to sign a temporary arrangement even for 5,000 years. We can start with one year, for the purpose of negotiations. At most, we will write in the preamble to the agreement that we are not surrendering our right to the Land of Israel from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river, and they will say that they are not surrendering their right to the land from the river to the sea.”

And what about the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” which are mentioned in their convention?

“The convention is nonsense. Nobody reads such conventions or knows what is written in a convention. The PLO officially abolished its convention years after the signing of the Oslo Accords.

“I don’t need a declaration that they recognize the State of Israel; their very willingness to talk with us could be considered recognition. We can talk to the PLO, rather than with Hamas itself, we can talk to the president – there are all kinds of ways. I am encouraged by the fact that they are talking about withdrawal to the 1967 borders. That’s the same as the PLO.”

And the terror?

“The demand that they stop the terror is a reasonable condition, in my opinion: I believe that Hamas can stop the terror of Islamic Jihad, and if they don’t do so – there will be no talks. But there won’t be terror, because Hamas is attentive to Palestinian public opinion, which does not want terror. The fact is that they stopped it before the elections. Therefore, there is also a chance that Hamas will agree to talks with us, if we want them, because this is an organization that wants to remain in power.”

They said the same thing about the Nazis.

“That’s completely baseless. It’s like comparing the snow on Mt. Everest to the snow on Mt. Tabor, only because both are mountains. There is no place for such a comparison.”

Are you familiar with Hamas?

“I’m not familiar with [Ismail] Haniyeh, but I do know Mahmoud al-Zahar. Don’t forget that Gush Shalom [the Israel Peace Bloc, founded by Avnery] began in the wake of the expulsion of 415 Hamas members to Lebanon. At the time we set up a tent opposite the Prime Minister’s Office, we sat there for 45 days, even in the snow; after a year they brought them all back. They invited me to Gaza, they wanted me to be a guest speaker. I got onto the platform with two little flags in my lapel, one Israeli and one Palestinian; I spoke in Hebrew. I saw about 500 black beards in front of me. Mine was the only white one. They invited me for a meal. I saw that they were not monsters. There are all kinds, just as in Shas: If their rabbi wants, he curses and condemns, and if he wants – he becomes very flexible.”